Tonight we began a challenging journey in our 6pm Evening service. We have committed ourselves to 4 weeks of compassionate listening - listening to the experiences and perspectives of people who are usually not given a hearing in a faith community. Over the next few weeks we will listen to the Voices of people living with disability, Social Activists who are not a part of the church and a so-called Athiest. But tonight we began by listening to the experience of Stef.
Stef courageously volunteered to speak about his experiences as a Gay man in a same-sex relationship. He is in his mid 20's and is a student. Stef grew up in the church and became very involved in youth work and worship in the church. But more recently, as he became more open about his sexual orientation, it became more and more difficult to participate in the church that he grew up in.
Stef spoke about his growing awareness of his sexual orientation. He did not experience this as a choice - in fact, he asked us why anyone would choose the challenges and rejection that many Gay people experience. Rather, his awareness of his sexual orientation was a gradual awakening which developed through adolescence. This culminated in his coming out to his family, and more recently, deciding to live his life openly.
Stef recently got engaged to Charl and they have planned a wedding ceremony for next year. I asked Stef why marriage? - and he responded that both he and Charl have grown up in the church and this is what they were taught - they want to commit themselves to each other and before God "just like everyone else".
The church world-wide is busy wrestling with these issue: what do you think? It would be good to write some of your thoughts and questions arising out of Sunday night's conversation with Stef. Use the "Comments" link below to record a comment or a question.
Stef has invited questions and so if anyone wants to ask a question they can use this forum - or if it's more personal, they could email barry confidentially: barry@stjohnsmc.org.za
If you are interested in the Methodist Church of Southern Africa's official position on the issue of same-sex relationships, you can find more info below on our web-site: link here
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Hi
ReplyDeleteI dont think we (StJohn's) can be "shocked" anymore when Barry comes out with the gay issue card. In the time I have been attending StJohn's, I have been exposed to many gay related discussions on my feelings on how I perceive StJohn's attitude towards gay people. Being gay myself, I have not had a single bad experience. My general attitude towards the "straights" has always been Live and let Live or I will hit you with my handbag.
We do have the older generation in StJohn's and they will have the attitude of gay being wrong. I can respect that and I dont think we can expect them to change when the Methodist church only recently has started to embrase the gay issue.
"The Methodist Church - which has been embroiled in a row with 19 of its ministers over whether to conduct civil unions - has an interim policy that prohibits gay marriages in its churches.
According to the Civil Union Act, if a religious institution does not wish to conduct civil unions, it must submit ..." - Has this changed ?
last thought: Does StJohn's have any idea on how many gay people are attending StJohn's ? It would be interesting...
Hi there!
ReplyDeleteI am Stef's Mom, Ferny. I would like to say how VERY PROUD we are of our son! From the day he told us that he is gay he has proudly stood up for himself as a gay person.It was an extremely courageous thing to do especially since he had many negative experiences in the church he grew up in.
We would like to thank St. John's wonderful pastor Barry for giving Stef "a voice". I firmly believe that education is the key to change and if even just one person was positively affected by last night's conversation, then that is a wonderful thing. Certainly the reaction that Stef & Charl received after last night's service was extremely heartwarming.
As Stef said last night, he and Charl want exactly the same as every other young couple in love. To show their love and commitment to each other by being joined in marriage and hopefully having a family too.
We are so happy that Stef and Charl have chosen to spend their lives together and be joined both in the eyes of God and also legally by the civil union act. We have grown to love Charl as much as we do Stef and our only regret is that we live in Durban and are not able to spend more time with them. Every moment spent with them and being a witness to their love is a joy for us as parents.
We are very happy to know that Stef & Charl have found a christian community where they feel comfortable and welcome. Thank you.
God Bless & kind regards - Ferny & Rob Vermonti
Hi
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that we can openly talk about things like this. I suppose not everyone will agree with the topics that will be discussed over the next few weeks but, we need to be honest and open minded. We need to ask ourselves - Is it better to talk about these sensitive issues and deal with them or should we put blinkers on our eyes and pretend nothing is happening.
The bible teaches us not to judge so that we also will not be judged. In John 8:7 Jesus says: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone."
Seeing that we acknowledge that we are sinners - How do we put price tags on our sins? Who's better and who not? Fortunately we serve loving and gracious God.
Lets stand together and pray that God lead us as we go on this journey of listening to the outside voices.
May God open our ears that we may hear HIM speaking and our minds that we may understand what HE is teaching us and our hearts that we may accept HIS word and love our neighbors as ourselves.
Regards,
Beryl
"last thought: Does StJohn's have any idea on how many gay people are attending StJohn's ? It would be interesting..."
ReplyDeleteEr, no actuallly... It would be really interesting to find out!
hey! this is a great start to the conversation! to Gay anonymous - it's really great to know that your experiences of St John's have been all positive!
ReplyDeleteFerny - I haven't met you but it certainly is significant that Stef enjoys such positive support from his parents. I'm sure that this must contribute to his confidence... I have spoken to a few mothers of Gay and Lesbian children in our congregation and they have all found great peace in supporting and loving their children. Thanks for adding to the conversation...
Beryl - thanks for your helpful comments - indeed, may God open our ears...
regarding how many gay and lesbian (not to mention trans-gendered) people there are at St John's, I am aware of at least 8 regular worshippers who have spoken to me about their orientation. I am also aware of a number of members who have gay or lesbian children...
While there may only be a small number at present, I wonder how many Gay and Lesbian people long for contact with a community of faith, but have given up hope after being turned away...
So far comments have been quite "approving". I wonder if there are any people out there who feel differently - who have opposing or conflicted views on this issue...
ReplyDeleteA Transgendered Prayer
ReplyDeleteGod, I am a woman who has lived a full life as both man and woman. I have done things as a man that most women would not dare to; and I have done things as a woman that would make most men cringe.
I have walked on both sides of the fence and and found the side I stand on now really is greener than the other. This has brought me fulfilment and joy and the satisfaction of knowing the journey was long and hard, but after all that, it was worth it. Through all these things You have walked beside me, guided me, loved me and protected me.
God, I want to help my brothers and sisters in the transgendered community, help me to give them good advice and counsel and assistance in order to make their journeys easier and less painful than my journey was. Help me to make their lives less lonely and more meaningful and to inspire them to succeed where i might have failed. Help me to inspire hope in
them that they too can achieve their goals as i have. That there is always hope, no matter how small, and that even when their friends or families desert them, even cursing them in Your name, You are still there walking beside them as You walk beside me. Help me to show them that self-discovery and self-fulfilment and the attainment of their dreams is not beyond their reach. Help me to help them see that a final operation is not the end of that journey, but just another milestone along the way.
Help me to speak out when I see they are wronged, to stand up when I am called to do so - and most of all, to be a good ambassador for all that we are and hope to be.
Amen
Christina Engela
"The Methodist Church - which has been embroiled in a row with 19 of its ministers over whether to conduct civil unions - has an interim policy that prohibits gay marriages in its churches."
ReplyDeleteWhen Stef and Charl gets married next year. Will the Methodist church allow Barry to perform the ceremony or does the interim policy still stand?
Hi Barry
ReplyDeleteI don't recall my parents ever telling me that homosexuality was wrong, but I (together with all my school mates) "knew" that it was wrong and therefore a sin in God's eyes. Consequently, the two effeminate classmates we had throughout my high school years were subjected to teasing, ridicule and social rejection.
I'm much more enlightened now and I look back at my schoolboy actions with embarrassment. We perceived their difference to us as being a weakness and girlish, so they became easy targets. When I think back on these guys now, there's one thing that reallysticks out - they always remained dignified whilst we behaved like boors. And I was taught a life lesson by one of them - that gay people aren't softies. The year after we matriculated, he lost one of his legs below the knee in a shark attack and despite this handicap, went on to win several inter-provincial ballroom dance titles (with his mother as his partner) and also represented his province in high board diving for several years!
This brings me to last Sunday night’s service. I think that both you and Stef were extremely brave in doing what you did, as you both risk being rejected and ridiculed by members of the St John's community, especially the elderly and those resistant to change.
Same-sex relationships, because they go against what we are either taught or perceive to be right, will always be a contentious issue. This I believe is even truer in the church because it is all too easy to quote the Bible as "proof" that it is wrong.
A few weeks ago you placed a link on this forum which gave the Methodist Church's official position on the subject, which caused me to wrestle with the issue. I found quite a few references in the Bible to "shrine prostitutes", but not to homosexuals. Perhaps the following link will be helpful to others who are struggling with the concept: http://www.christchapel.com/corinth_inter.html
In closing, thank you for your continued fresh and open approach. Whilst you may be seen by some as controversial and even confrontational, you regularly make the congregation think about issues that are easier to sweep under the carpet…
I for one am looking forward to the journey the next 3 weeks will bring...
Regards
Brian Paddey
Last Sunday's evening service was a little uncomfortable - but these uncomfortable conversations are often the most important ones.
ReplyDeleteI was not uncomfortable because I believe homosexuality is wrong; on the contrary I was relieved to find a minister who is willing to speak openly about this 'unspeakable' issue.
I have family memebers and friends who are gay and have struggled to be accepted in a church environment. Thank you Barry for opening a discussion on this issue and inviting us to spend a little thought on it instead of simply imbibing what society tells us to think abt it.
I have a perhaps ignorant question for Barry: Are Methodist ministers allowed to marry homosexual couples. What will you say/do if you are asked to perform a homosexual ceremony?
".....I wonder how many Gay and Lesbian people long for contact with a community of faith, but have given up hope after being turned away..."
ReplyDeleteWell I know of one at least. That may not be a significant number but for those who know the story of the boy who was questioned why he was tossing starfish (I think they were) back into the sea when there were just so many stranded that it seemed impossible to get them all back into the water, his reply was "Because it made a difference to that one".
When I was questioned by this gay guy on the topic of him being accepted into a community of faith, all I could answer was "I don't know". That was ten years ago and his question has plagued me ever since. If asked that question again today, my answer would be far different.
a few people are asking about whether I am allowed to perform Civil Unions for same-sex couples. The answer is No. The MCSA has decided not to allow any of it's ministers to apply to Home Affairs for such a licence (yet!). I am therefore not able to perform the legal/civil functions for a same-sex couple as I would at a wedding of a man and woman.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am committed to doing, along with a number of my colleagues, is to offering a "prayer of blessing" over their relationship, after the legal proceedings (at Home Affairs).
This is what I have offered to do for Stef and Charl when they make the big step next year. I am not able (yet) to do so with the full support of the Church that I am a part of, but I long for the day when the wider church community will celebrate relationships of faithfulness, committment, self-giving love, tenderness and care no matter who the two people may be...
a senior colleague of mine wrote (in response to reading the message from Stef's parents):
ReplyDeleteThat's fantastic Barry - well done! I found the parents' letter very moving. Poor people - how often up till now have they felt that the church had closed its doors in their son's face? The great thing is that the gathered people of God received and treated Stefano and Charl like human beings, before all else. Who knows, the next step may be receiving and treating them as brothers in Christ (if they are not that already). This seems to me to be the church being the church, the living body of the true Christ of the gospels, rather than an exclusive club, a pious custodian of public morals.
But if public morals are our concern, as indeed they should be, then by doing what you have done you have struck a blow for fidelity against promiscuity! I wonder how many realise that?
I received this email this week and have permission to post it here:
ReplyDeleteHi Barry
I have the need to air my views – I was hoping to chat to you personally – but I know that you are super busy ….
My thoughts on your message on Sunday evening -
Firstly I believe that God loves each of His creations equally – I personally do not agree that God condones the act of men having sex with each other –so how do we go about accepting same sex relationships or marriages?? I feel that the bible makes itself perfectly clear on this point - and if we are to disregard this section of the bible – what sections do we keep as Gods word to us??
Secondly – as far an atheist/evolutionist coming to a service to give his/her viewpoint – I feel it is all very well for people that are firmly established in their faith , my concern is about youngsters in their teens or new Christians that are unsure or are still trying to find their way – this will cause them so much confusion – why do we need someone to give us his /her opinion on how to live without God ??
Surely our purpose is to invite God into our lives and to live to please him – with a view to our eternal relationship with Him. Its all fine and good to have instant gratification but what happens to their/ our eternal souls once we start making up the rules as we go along ?
Are we not in danger of preaching a different gospel???
Just my take on the subject – would value your response.
"But if public morals are our concern, as indeed they should be, then by doing what you have done you have struck a blow for fidelity against promiscuity! I wonder how many realise that?"
ReplyDeleteUm...maybe it's just me but I am not too clear on what you meen. Who's the "you" you refer to?
the last line is a part of the letter from my colleague. so the "you" is me. he is suggesting that by encouraging a gay couple to commit their lives to each other in a faithful covenant, I am encouraging fidelity (faithful committed relationship) over against promiscuity... how can the church encourage same-sex couples to make a committment to each other without offering to bless their relationships? if we are against promiscuity, how do we express that, other than call people into committed faithful relationships of love and trust. and if we find such relationships, shouldn't we honour adn encourage them?
ReplyDeletei think that's the sentiment behind the last line of his letter to me... i think...
Hi all,
ReplyDeleteI am writing in response to the email Barry received.
My personal thought - I understand that you say that SEX is wrong between a man and man because that is what the bible says? BUT, should one really call it sex when you are in a committed relationship, and love one another and are doing just want any other couple would do - shouldn’t one rather say make love? I just find as a Gay Man that people in general always think of gay men as simply in a relationship for SEX & this is so so wrong! Charl and I have the same relationship as any straight couple does – we also go on dates, and socialise with friends, and do laundry and make dinner and clean the flat and drive cars, and go on holiday, and work etc. etc. – our relationship is NOT based on sex as the bible may indicate!
As I said on Sunday night, it is NATURAL for me to have attractions to the same-sex, so now should I rather be with a woman where it is UNNATURAL, just because the bible says so, which was written hundred’s of years ago, where people in those days weren’t dealing with these issues!
I think that the purpose that Barry is trying to achieve by inviting outside voices, is to educate us as so many people don’t know about atheists or disabled people or gay people, and the daily struggles that we have to endure, and by talking about it at Church, we are educating a couple hundred of people, and that’s where it needs to start.
I would just like to thank all the people who came up to me on Sunday night and thanked me for what I did – I was extremely nervous the whole weekend, but I knew that what I was going to do was going to benefit the congregation. It wasn’t easy to sit up there and talk, but I did it because when I came out in 2006, I decided that I would stand up for who I am and for who God made me, whether people like it or not – this is who I am – NOT who I have chosen to be!
Thank You to Barry for inviting me to talk on Sunday night! I look forward to the next few weeks of interviews
Just a few bible quotes I thought poeple would find interesting on the subject:
ReplyDeleteGod and discrimination
1 Samuel 16:7 In this passage, the lowly shepherd David is anointed king of Israel. Samuel assumes the LORD will choose one of David's many handsome brothers, but the LORD says to Samuel:
• ...I do not judge as man judges. Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.
Isaiah 56:4-5
In contradiction to the rules against eunuchs in Deuteronomy stands this passage from Isaiah:
• "For thus says the Lord: to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument better than sons and daughters, I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off."
"Shall not be cut off??"
Who says the Bible doesn't have much humor! That's a pretty bad pun!
Galatians 3:28
Another catch-all comeback! For those who wish to use Scripture to justify hating transsexuals:
• ...there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 19:12
This passage has Jesus speaking directly about eunuchs:
• "For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
Many interpretations of this passage have arisen. Some believe it is a discussion of voluntary celibacy, but the fact that Christ mentions people born that way indicates to me a birth condition. Some have also interpreted this to mean gays, which doesn't seem out of the question. However, I think the most literal interpretation would include intersexed (born that way) and transsexual persons (made that way). Regardless of interpretation, the main point is that anyone able to receive the Kingdom of Heaven may do so.
John 3:16
Of course, nothing beats a passage that's really familiar...
• For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Food for thought?
Dear Barry and St.Johns Leaders,
ReplyDeleteYou are certainly presenting us with a challenge. Some congregations may not yet be ready for this kind of exposure but I'm working on it!
Blessings to Stef & Charl and to everyone else at St.John's who are benefiting from this 4 week exposure - I believe Jesus is smiling on you! and saying: 'Well done!'
:) blessings, One of your colleagues from Durban.
Hi Barry, wow, this post will probably be comment #20 or thereabouts in this thread. Compared to the number of comments left on other posts, I guess the numbers can indicate a lot.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I just want to add to Stefano's post which are my own thoughts and please excuse me if I am duplicating the idea as I didn't hear his talk on Sunday.
I am interested to see Stefano mentioned the terms NATURAL and UNNATURAL. I happen to be left-handed. Using my left hand in preference over my right hand is natural to me. To use my right hand is unnuatural.
A few hundred years ago left handed people were stoned to death as they were considered sinister, the word having two meanings: to suggest evil or harm and, as is used in heraldry meaning "on or towards the left".
In this century left handed people go pretty much unnoticed although left handed people older than I have some unbelievable stories of having to endure almost torturous methods in order to change thier NATURAL preference to that which was more socially accepted yet UNNATURAL to them.
I certainly have never been denied access to any sort of membership or have been discriminated against or made to change my NATURAL orientation based on which hand I use most often. It's simply a non issue.
However, what I believe should, and perhaps is an issue is what I do with my hands. Do I glorify God with my left hand? Would I glorify God better if I forced myself, and trained myself to use my right hand instead? I know I'd endure a lot of frustration and pain doing so. I believe the result of using my left hand over my right would produce a far better result so why endure the pain and suffering of changing to right-handed simply to please society's norms or beliefs?
I have been blessed with a creative mind and artistic talents, therefore I use my hands a lot to transfer inspired ideas or information into tangable graphic pieces. I appreciate the value of my hands. However not one person who has admired my work or benifited from it's message has ever stopped to question if I was left or right handed before taking advantage of its purpose. They have simply stood back and admired the painting or digested the information I have produced. Both of which is what the essential intention is or was.
So in conclusion I see there's a parrallel in what hand you prefer to use and the gender of one's partner - those things which come to use NATURALLY. In my mind I have replaced the subject of hand-prefernece with sexual-preference and believe the parrallel is valid and the conclusion being that as humans we function better using NATURAL abilities than UNNATURAL ones.
I want to end with a question if I may: Isn't the orientation of one's life as a whole (what you do with it and how you live it) far more important than the orientation of your sexuality (who you share your life with)?
Thanks
Joe Bloggs
Hi Again,
ReplyDeleteWe have read the comments that have been posted since Sunday and it is heartwarming to see that they are mostly positive. Hi Again,
We have read with interest the comments posted here during the past week and are encouraged to see that most are positive.
I would just like to say that for our very special young men, Stef & Charl, the blessing that they will receive from Barry on the 9th August next year is what will be REALLY significant! Yes the "Civil Union" is also important BUT for these young men who grew up in homes where loving & worshipping our Lord Jesus Christ was an integral part of their daily lives, pledging their commitment to each other in the eyes of God is so important.
The fact that the "Prayer of Blessing" will be done by Barry, a man they know and respect and who is becoming a friend to them, is so special both to them and to us as parents.
Some people have asked me how i feel about my son becoming a "Methodist" after having grown up in one of the oldest religions in history. My answer to them is the same as what i said to Stefano when he told us that he is gay almost 2 years ago. For Stefano & Charl and all of us for that matter, our most important relationship is with God. And we all worship the same God, so does it matter which church we belong to? I don't think so.....what DOES matter is that we feel comfortable and accepted in the church of our choice. And as i said before in my previous post, we are so very thankful that Stef & Charl have found St. John's!!
Sadly many, many gay people end up leaving the church and becoming very bitter and cynical because they have experienced rejection and humiliation in there church communities. I thank God that he guided Stef & Charl and led them to your community.
Have a Blessed weekend.
Kind Regards - Ferny & Rob Vermonti.
Oops! Not sure what happened in my post above coz the first line appaered twice. Apologies, it was not intentional.
ReplyDeleteRegards - Ferny
Dear Barry
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to applaud ++++++ about the message on Sunday night. It’s way overdue that we Christians stop acting like some exclusive club and learn to give a loving welcome to everyone. The gay community has been treated shockingly badly by the church in the past. Thanks for having the courage to set this ball rolling – you have my wholehearted support.
Kind Regards
Lynda Audley